Author Topic: "Dono" or no "Dono"? - that is the question.  (Read 2495 times)

Ishikawa Goemon

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"Dono" or no "Dono"? - that is the question.
« on: October 25, 2010, 08:57:28 pm »
Alright, bad title. Sorry.

But, I've been trying to figure out under what terms Goemon attaches the honorific of 'dono' to some of the women he meets. It's a bit troublesome when it comes to roleplaying because I want him to be consistent in his usage but he isn't really that way in canon, or so it seems. (Ex. Murasaki-dono, Kikuko-dono vs. not using it with Becky, Kikyo e.t.c.)

Now I'm absolutely no expert on the Japanese language, so I'm hoping someone could help ignorant ol' me find some sort of 'rule' for using it when writing as Goemon, if you will. I wasn't sure which section of the forum a question like this belonged to, but if this is the wrong place for it, please let me know and move this thread.

Thanks in advance for your help! It's greatly appreciated. :)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 02:02:45 pm by Ishikawa Goemon »
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LadyLupin

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Re: "Dono" or no "Dono"? - that is the question.
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2010, 11:02:44 pm »
I'm posting something I found on a website via google search:

Dono/tono

Dono and tono (both written 殿) roughly mean "lord" or "master". This title is no longer used in daily conversation, though it is still used in some types of written business correspondence. It is also seen on certificates and awards, and in written correspondence in tea ceremonies. The word dono originally meant the residence of the aristocracy. It's often translated as "Lord" or "Lady" in English subtitles, though noble status is not necessarily implied; it is more akin to general terms such as "milord" or French "monseigneur". Dono is similar to sama, but the latter is less formal and often carries undertones of personal affection.

Note: Dono and tono are more common in anime and manga, particularly in period works, and often come up in two forms:

   1. submissive: Using its "lord" or "master" roots, this form of dono is often considered to show slightly more respect than sama and more than san. [2]
   2. equal: This form of dono is used by a powerful/important person to address another powerful/important person with a great deal of respect without elevating the addressee above the addresser.[3]

Is this of any help to you? Good luck! :3

Ishikawa Goemon

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Re: "Dono" or no "Dono"? - that is the question.
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2010, 01:40:51 am »
Quote
Dono is similar to sama, but the latter is less formal and often carries undertones of personal affection

Interesting; I wasn't aware of the latter part. Thanks! *files fact away in brain*
Lupin will look up and shout, "Save us, plot-device!", and I'll look down and whisper, "No".

Jo

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Re: "Dono" or no "Dono"? - that is the question.
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2010, 03:34:53 am »
Dono is roughly the equivalent of "milady" or "monseigneur" as mentioned above but making that western connection doesn't fully explain the context of the suffix. I think it helps to get behind the history of it all. During feudal Japan it was added to end of a respectable person's name but the addressee wasn't necessarily someone that was that much of a higher rank. The term was used in feudal Japan by high ranking generals when addressing other high ranking persons, but without implying the same status depreciation or humbling as ~sama. Now this doesn't mean that they were being disrespectful or using it begrudgingly, but it was simply a way of stating their 'rank' in comparison to whomever they were speaking to.

In the feudal context, ~dono is a form of acknowledging that such and such person is of higher rank but without diminishing your own status (which is what ~sama is for). In a more current sense (well, it's archaic, but when Goemon uses it) it's a term added to someone's name to denote a certain level of respect, but such person doesn't carry the same (or much) degree of superiority as ~sama or equality (familiarity in some cases) that it would be acceptable to use ~san.

Anyways, hope that makes sense as it's sort of way past bedtime xD
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 03:38:52 am by JoYi »

Lupin III Manga Database[Scanlations and such are here]

Ishikawa Goemon

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Re: "Dono" or no "Dono"? - that is the question.
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2010, 04:08:51 am »
Quote
Dono is roughly the equivalent of "milady" or "monseigneur" as mentioned above but making that western connection doesn't fully explain the context of the suffix. I think it helps to get behind the history of it all. During feudal Japan it was added to end of a respectable person's name but the addressee wasn't necessarily someone that was that much of a higher rank. The term was used in feudal Japan by high ranking generals when addressing other high ranking persons, but without implying the same status depreciation or humbling as ~sama. Now this doesn't mean that they were being disrespectful or using it begrudgingly, but it was simply a way of stating their 'rank' in comparison to whomever they were speaking to.

In the feudal context, ~dono is a form of acknowledging that such and such person is of higher rank but without diminishing your own status (which is what ~sama is for). In a more current sense (well, it's archaic, but when Goemon uses it) it's a term added to someone's name to denote a certain level of respect, but such person doesn't carry the same (or much) degree of superiority as ~sama or equality (familiarity in some cases) that it would be acceptable to use ~san.

I see! Thank you kindly for the in-depth explanation. Indeed, for the most part, it was very clear; me being me, however, I think I'm still going to end up having some trouble deciding when and when it isn't appropriate while he's interacting with many different female strangers of 'ordinary' backgrounds, hehe. But anyway, again, I really appreciate the response! Perhaps I shouldn't worry so much.

Quote
as it's sort of way past bedtime xD

For me too. << ... >>
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 04:10:01 am by Ishikawa Goemon »
Lupin will look up and shout, "Save us, plot-device!", and I'll look down and whisper, "No".

Jo

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Re: "Dono" or no "Dono"? - that is the question.
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2010, 03:29:26 pm »
Quote
Dono is roughly the equivalent of "milady" or "monseigneur" as mentioned above but making that western connection doesn't fully explain the context of the suffix. I think it helps to get behind the history of it all. During feudal Japan it was added to end of a respectable person's name but the addressee wasn't necessarily someone that was that much of a higher rank. The term was used in feudal Japan by high ranking generals when addressing other high ranking persons, but without implying the same status depreciation or humbling as ~sama. Now this doesn't mean that they were being disrespectful or using it begrudgingly, but it was simply a way of stating their 'rank' in comparison to whomever they were speaking to.

In the feudal context, ~dono is a form of acknowledging that such and such person is of higher rank but without diminishing your own status (which is what ~sama is for). In a more current sense (well, it's archaic, but when Goemon uses it) it's a term added to someone's name to denote a certain level of respect, but such person doesn't carry the same (or much) degree of superiority as ~sama or equality (familiarity in some cases) that it would be acceptable to use ~san.

I see! Thank you kindly for the in-depth explanation. Indeed, for the most part, it was very clear; me being me, however, I think I'm still going to end up having some trouble deciding when and when it isn't appropriate while he's interacting with many different female strangers of 'ordinary' backgrounds, hehe. But anyway, again, I really appreciate the response! Perhaps I shouldn't worry so much.

Quote
as it's sort of way past bedtime xD

For me too. << ... >>
Yikes rereading that post was painful. I just said the same thing but in increasingly confusing sentences. Definitely in the modern context it's a bit harder to know when you'd use ~dono to address a man or a woman, but I suppose the easiest way to decide whether a person should be addressed as ~dono is to ask yourself "is ____'s family background as respectable/honorable as Goemon".

Lupin III Manga Database[Scanlations and such are here]

Ishikawa Goemon

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Re: "Dono" or no "Dono"? - that is the question.
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2010, 03:38:10 pm »
Quote
Yikes rereading that post was painful. I just said the same thing but in increasingly confusing sentences. Definitely in the modern context it's a bit harder to know when you'd use ~dono to address a man or a woman, but I suppose the easiest way to decide whether a person should be addressed as ~dono is to ask yourself "is ____'s family background as respectable/honorable as Goemon".


Gotchya.

I sent you a PM to continue the discussion in a little more detail, if that's fine with you. Thanks again! :)
Lupin will look up and shout, "Save us, plot-device!", and I'll look down and whisper, "No".