Author Topic: Did Castle of Cagliostro almost ruin Miyazaki's career in anime?  (Read 13914 times)

Reed

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Re: Did Castle of Cagliostro almost ruin Miyazaki's career in anime?
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2012, 07:15:33 pm »
Reed:
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you have yet to even provide plausible conjecture that it was "Cagliostro" that kept him from getting work. i.e.,

Well, let's see. He was getting a whole bunch of gigs in the 70s, and then Cagliostro came along, and then almost nothing until Nausicaa.

Keyword: almost.
Also: pure speculation. Circumstantial evidence.
He was not gainfully employed 100% of the time for a period of maybe 2 years, but he was working in 1980, and working for at least part of Nemo's early development, and was working on Nausicaa the Movie for nearly all of 1983. So that leaves roughly 1981 and 1982. And wasn't Sherlock Hound somewhere in there, too? That's right, he was working on that until Summer 1982. And he started work on the Nausicaa film in May 1983. So, he was not busy in animation for... one whopping year. Surely he was blacklisted because of the horrible film that was "Castle of Cagliostro."

Like I said, even if he wasn't able to find work, saying "well DUH it HAD to be 'Cagliostro'--look at the dates!" is no more proof than you started with. IF Miyazaki couldn't find work, isn't it possible that his reputation as a perfectionist and as someone notoriously hard to work with preceded him? How is "Cagliostro" the cause, then, and not Miyazaki, the person? It wouldn't be. Show me proof, not just "well duh!"

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Also, he was series director on Sherlock Hound before it was put on hiatus. It's not a film director position but it certainly has more prestige than covering random "Lupin" TV episodes.

Perhaps, but you're arguing that he was independent by then, but the fact that he had to go back to tv suggests otherwise.

I never claimed he was independent. I said if he wanted work, he could probably find it. He was working at TMS' Telecom studio for both the Nemo project and for Sherlock Hound. When the Nausicaa film project began in May 1983, he moved on to Topcraft. It's my understanding he left TMS sometime in between, and probably either after Hound got canceled or when Nemo tanked. I'd lean toward the prior.

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But Miyazaki had never accepted any order from the commercial managements.

That sort of supports my argument that he burned some bridges during that period. Nemo, though, isn't really a good example in general, because if Wikipedia is any indication, it was always going to be a trainwreck. The fact that anything watchable was produced from that many "cooks" is the real miracle. 

I assume that saying Miyazaki wasn't hard to work with would be a lie. But saying he didn't accept orders from his superiors on the Nemo project doesn't mean he was like that for every project. It was even his project to drop--all reports I've ever read said Miyazaki was the one to leave the Nemo project, not the other way around.

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Howhere, HOLMES was frozen after just four episodes completed, because of some economical problems

Again, economical problems during a decade which funded almost any anime?

Yeah, the article's probably lying just to cover up for Miyazaki.
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GATSU

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Re: Did Castle of Cagliostro almost ruin Miyazaki's career in anime?
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2012, 10:51:55 pm »
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So that leaves roughly 1981 and 1982. And wasn't Sherlock Hound somewhere in there, too? That's right, he was working on that until Summer 1982.

That's an awfully slow turnaround for the show, given the era.

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And he started work on the Nausicaa film in May 1983.

But when did he actually start animating it, and not just planning it?

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IF Miyazaki couldn't find work, isn't it possible that his reputation as a perfectionist and as someone notoriously hard to work with preceded him? How is "Cagliostro" the cause, then, and not Miyazaki, the person?

He could get away with it before, because he had hit shows on NHK. But when that initially didn't translate into success in film, then he became a liability. See, no one really expected Oshii to necessarily have a crowd-pleasing product after Beautiful Dreamer and Angel's Egg. But they obviously were hoping for the opposite from Miyazaki.

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I never claimed he was independent. I said if he wanted work, he could probably find it.

Isn't that the definition of independent? He can pick and choose whatever projects he wants, rather than work for a living.

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It's my understanding he left TMS sometime in between, and probably either after Hound got canceled or when Nemo tanked. I'd lean toward the prior.

Yeah, he was long etablished at Ghibli by the time of the latter event.

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But saying he didn't accept orders from his superiors on the Nemo project doesn't mean he was like that for every project.

I didn't say every project. But the attitude probably cost him a number of projects during that era.

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Yeah, the article's probably lying just to cover up for Miyazaki.

I'm not saying it's lying. I'm saying it's not telling the whole story, because obviously, no one at TMS/Telecom wants to talk about it.

FilmmakerJ

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Re: Did Castle of Cagliostro almost ruin Miyazaki's career in anime?
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2012, 12:39:58 am »
To GATSU:

DUDE! :o Seriously, what is you're deal. Are you out for vengeance on "Cagliostro?" Did "The Castle of Cagliostro" kill your dog or something? Why is it now your ultimate quest to prove once and for all that "Cagliostro" almost ruined Miyazaki's career?

I wasn't taking offense at this before because I thought it was harmless theories and conjecture, but I'm starting to take offense because of how zealous you are towards this end. I know it's just a movie and all, but it's my Favorite movie. I don't know anyone else who can definitively say that this movie, out of all the millions of possible choices, is their Number One favorite movie. So if anyone should take offense, it's gonna be me.

And I am getting tired of seeing you refer to the 1980s as this all-mighty era of an anime boom where everything should have been going right and everything was up for syndication and production; except for Miyazaki, post Cagliostro.

Do you even like the film, GATSU? Cause I can't believe anyone who likes it to any extent would try so hard to prove that it was the rotten potato that clogged Miyazaki's tail pipe.

Now with my little rant over, let me add something else.

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But when did he actually start animating it (Nausicaa), and not just planning it?

You do know how long it takes to plan a movie, don't you? Now Miyazaki did go through some tough times trying to get it off the ground, as I hope you saw if you did watch that documentary. But non-the-less, even if he didn't have to do all he did, it still took time to do.

Besides, the only reason that Cagliostro might have ever hurt his career was because he messed with the established canon, and the fans were disgruntled and didn't attend enough showings to make it profitable. Everyone else in Japan likely didn't attend because it helps if you are a fan to know who these characters are since they have pre-established relationships. And since Goemon and Jigen barely show up during the second half, it does kind of help to know who they are so you know what they are doing there.

But even taking all that into account, the only fault Miyazaki made was in his personal changes to an established character and franchise. Meaning his abilities to adapt pre-established material into films was into question, not his directing skills. Now granted a large chunk of the anime market is on adaptations as well all know. But nearly everything Miyazaki has done was neither a manga nor an anime adaptation. He only did 2 adaptations of novels, and the rest was either completely original, or it was inspired by folk stories. Cagliostro, on all it's own merits, as a self-contained film, (I'm sure most of us on this forum can agree, as it was our first Lupin film for many of us) is a fine piece of work. If I were a producer in Japan at the time I don't see why Miyazaki shouldn't be given an opportunity to direct something original, because he hadn't quite done that yet. Directing an adaptation for your first feature film is a large undertaking, and sure it didn't do well due to the reaction of the Lupin fan-base. But on it's own it shows he can be a fine director. I don't believe it ruined his career because he didn't fail as a director, he failed only as an interpreter of material because he let his own personal morals and beliefs get in the way of making a loyal adaptation. And honestly, I like PG Lupin as much as I do PG-13 and rated R Lupin. However, I don't think anyone should be judged solely on this lack of adaptation abilities. If he was judged on his over-all abilities simply because he failed to properly adapt a franchise, then that's complete bull, unfair, and it's an illogical conclusion.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 12:48:23 am by FilmmakerJ »

GATSU

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Re: Did Castle of Cagliostro almost ruin Miyazaki's career in anime?
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2012, 03:37:18 am »
It's not about Cagliostro. I like the film. I'm just trying to look for a causality. And I'm just thinking Miyazaki should've risen through the ranks sooner, because of that movie. But Lupin fans of that era hated it in much the same way Macross fans did with Macross II. So they punished him by making it bomb, setting him back in the process.

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Cagliostro, on all it's own merits, as a self-contained film,

Yes and no. It's inspired by various Arsene Lupin novels, albeit loosely.

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I don't believe it ruined his career because he didn't fail as a director, he failed only as an interpreter of material because he let his own personal morals and beliefs get in the way of making a loyal adaptation.

Point taken. So he's better, or at least more interesting, with original material. I can agree there. I like Laputa way more than Future Boy Conan. And yes, I'm aware they're both based on novels, but the former uses his own ideas. So I guess we could both argue that it nearly stopped him from working on future anime adaptations, but that he was able to persevere through his own ideas.